Be The Bank

002 - Rates Are Down, Values Are Up

January 26, 2022 Justin Bogard Season 4 Episode 2
Be The Bank
002 - Rates Are Down, Values Are Up
Show Notes Transcript

Be The Bank S4 Ep2 - Rates Are Down, Values Are Up

On episode 2 of season 4, Justin Bogard interviews Richard Thornton. 

 Key Takeaways:  

  1. REOs vs NPLs
  2. Get a Team
  3. Know How to Pivot

 Resources and links discussed  

  About the Host

 Justin Bogard – Note Investor specializing in performing Residential Real Estate Debt. He finds deals and acquires them for his own portfolio as well as educates investors while walking them through the process of owning a Real Estate Note!  

  Connect with the Host: 

Justin Bogard:

Interested in real estate. How about wealth? Well, they go hand in hand and here you'll learn all about it, about it. Welcome to be the bank, a podcast where we discuss and debate the topics centered around real estate. Investing your host, justin Bogard shares insights into investing in real estate to create real wealth and passive income for you and your family. He'll share stories of real estate investments done, right? Walk you through the process of owning a real estate note , and most importantly, educate you so you can be the bank , your bank . This is be the bank brought to you by bright path notes. Now here's your host, Justin Bogard Hello again, everyone. I'm Justin Bogard and this is episode number two of the, be the bank podcast, our newly rebranded podcast, formally the two wealth show. So today I got another guest , uh , a friend of mine and , uh , a partner in business as well. And we're gonna be discussing kind of EOS and NPLS. There's a lot of talk about those coming down the pike here in 2022, and we're gonna be talking and debating and discussing around that subject matter. So without further ado, let's get right into this episode. Richard Thornton. You are my guest today. How are you, bud,

Richard Thornton:

Sir ? Good, sir. How about you?

Justin Bogard:

I'm doing very well. Thank you for asking mm-hmm <affirmative> so the listener here doesn't really know a lot about you, Richard. I know a lot about you and I could, I could talk a while about you, but I kind of wanted to hear and, and want the listener to know kind of how you got into where you are today. Really a note investing.

Richard Thornton:

Okay . Well , um, when I first started out, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. Like a lot of us <laugh> , uh , but I got into syndications , uh , primarily commercial stuff and worked for a syndicated for a number of years, got a master's degree in finance and that syndicated bought a bank. And so I became a lender, a commercial lender. And did that for , um, a number of years until the SNL crisis came along.

Justin Bogard:

SNL you mean Saturday night live

Richard Thornton:

That's right. That's right. I don't think so. <laugh> and then , uh , after that, sure , we started my own mortgage banking company with another guy. Okay . Uh , and we did large apartment loans for the most part all over the country. Um , minimum loan size was 10 to 15 million and , uh, sold that in the early two thousands. And then I syndicated , um, uh , assisted living facility for the most part. I took a lot of my clients and said, Hey look, would you like to invest in X, Y, and Z? And we , we did that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and then a funny little thing called the recession came along. Yeah. Uh , and , um , sort of put that to bed . But as part of that, I started doing hard money loans. Um, I started a small, hard money fund. I had about four or 5 million to manage other people's money. Okay. Um, and, and that evolved into investing in notes. And here I am today.

Justin Bogard:

So where were you doing most of your hard money when you had that hard money? Um , the hard

Richard Thornton:

Money stuff was out here in California. We were just coming outta the recession. You could , um, literally buy stuff for 30 cents on the dollar. Oh, wow. And make , um, at the beginning you could probably make a good 50 to 70% profit on everything you did. Holy cow. Um, so I did a number myself and , uh , did some for some other people when too many newbies got into it and the margins started the thin, I said, it's time for me to bow out. Uh , and I did . And that's just when I started to focus on , uh , on the notes and lending part,

Justin Bogard:

You mean newbies as in newbie, flippers or newbie lender?

Richard Thornton:

Uh , newbie, flippers. I mean, a lot of people, a lot of HGTV guys who got into it and said, oh, gee, I can make a fast buck on this. And , and they did. And a lot of 'em , uh , made a lot of money, but the margins started to drop. A lot of these guys were lucky if they made a 15% profit , um, on it and out here in Cal for , uh, at that point you could buy something for four or $500,000 , um, put a hundred thousand into it and sell it for eight. Well , that's great, but you're probably only borrowing 300,000. You gotta put two or 300,000 of your own money into it. And so if the market stalls , it stalls really hard. Um, and so, okay . The risk from that standpoint was a little bit too great. I never really got into , um , Midwest flipping , uh , at this point I'm kind of , sorry. I didn't, because there was a whole lot to a whole lot to do .

Justin Bogard:

So what timeframe was this? What , what years were you doing? The hard money lending?

Richard Thornton:

Uh , the hard money lending actually started in about probably 2010 and went to 20 14, 20 15 . And then I started investing in notes after that.

Justin Bogard:

So was it all over California or was it specifically in a certain area of CA

Richard Thornton:

All over California? Yeah. I had a couple lenders I worked with and I had my own funds and my own investors funds and , uh , mm-hmm , <affirmative> basically we did residential stuff. Um, and looking back at it, I could have done more commercial and kept on going , uh , but I decided to actually focus on notes , but it was all over California. It was a , it was fun. I really enjoyed that. Um, the market was very vibrant at the time. There was a lot of competition, but you could do very well as a, as a private money lender. And I still actually am doing a little bit of that now , uh, because I think the market we're turning back towards where the market is . Um, it's a good time to do that. So we have to all know how to pivot in this business. And , um , I think it's time to start that again.

Justin Bogard:

Sorry, Richard. I I'm , uh , come down with something a little bit, so I have cough every now and then, so don't mean to , to understand with my loud coughing <laugh>

Richard Thornton:

You're fine.

Justin Bogard:

So, okay. Well, let's bring it to fast forward to now note investing. So now you've, you've learned the, the trade business of buying and selling loans of stuff, and that's kind of where you are today,

Richard Thornton:

Right? Um, yes, I've probably got , um, well , I probably bought, I'd have to look at it, but 110 to 120 notes, something like that. Um, brokered a fair number of them , uh , done a lot of what's called partials is , you know, what a partial is, but the , the audience may not. Um, it's where are you actually purchase a, a portion of the note , uh, for a limited amount of time, if it's got a 25 year period left on it , um, I might sell an investor the first 10 years or something like that. So I've got a good number of partials , um, out there and , uh, have done some NPLS , um, not by choice, but , uh , <laugh> people of my notes have , have gone that way. Uh , and then I've done some REO purchases also.

Justin Bogard:

Okay. That is great. Cause that's a great lead into what we're gonna get into today. So for the listener out there, we have what's called an R EEO and we have what's called an NP E L . Now an R EEO is a real estate owned piece of property, meaning a lender, someone like Richard or myself has a property and we take back the property via a foreclosure. And now we have an R E O so that's the bank owned property. We might necessarily be a bank, but where the lender and that's just kind of how the naming convention came about. So an NPL is a nonperforming loan, meaning a borrower hasn't made a payment in at least 91 days. And so that becomes in this category called nonperforming. Now the assumption is that that note is still gonna continue to be nonperforming. So there are options. Once you get into nonperforming loans and you can re negotiate the terms with the borrower, you can forgive some debt or for bear some debt as well, put on the back of the loan. And if they simply can't afford to stay there, then you either can get a deed in lie of foreclosure, where they just walk away from the property and they sign the property back over to you. Or lastly, you go through a true foreclosure in that state and you go through the judicial process and then you get the property back via foreclosure in , in , in Indiana, we call it a sheriff sale. And so those are kind of the definitions of an REO and NPL . So Richard, you have mentioned that you have , uh , purchased Oreos. You've mentioned that you've gotten NPLS and you've gotten NPLS from the fact that they were performing and then they were not performing. So right . You have experienced both worlds. Uh , I myself have done similar things. I've bought the REOS, excuse me. And I've also had NPLS that I've bought intentionally and I've also had performing loans go, not performing else. So we could both have some experience there. So today's conversation. I want to figure out , uh , today's market is a little bit different than what it was in that oh 8 0 9 fiasco where the real estate , uh , appreciation dropped dramatically and people were underwater with their mortgages pretty much overnight. And so today's economy where real estate is appreciating so much in value. The folks that can't afford to make their payment, they're actually sitting okay, as far as equity in the property, they've got this ghost equity that just appeared with has span of equity in their property to where they can just refinance out. They can get outta the situation pre pretty good, some folks, however, choose to do the forbearance route. And then they, they get stuck in this deal and they can't , um, afford to make this payment. So we got a different type of MPL today. Now, Richard, I, I know you , you keep up on some data just as well as I do. And there were some non-performing loans that didn't go through foreclosure before COVID started, right?

Richard Thornton:

Yes. I mean, there, there was a, a market. We were at a , uh , low rate. I think the , um , I look at the mortgage bankers association, the MBA standards, and I think we are right at 2.6 to 3% in terms of a foreclosure rate nationally , uh , pre COVID that's an all time low. Uh , and we are , um , above that now. But as you know , uh , with all the restrictions on , uh , foreclosure , um, a lot of that has not happened. We're in a very interesting market. As you mentioned in that with the recession before rates were up and values were down. So it was a hard crash for a lot of people. There was no way to , to get out. What we're seeing in the market right now is rates are down and values are up. So where we thought there was going to be a huge wave of foreclosures, a number of people are actually saying, gosh, you know, I've still got a job , uh I'm or I'm, or am reemployed. They can qualify for a conventional mortgage, they've got more equity in their house. So what they're actually able to do is refinance pay off their , um, payments that they , uh , forb or forb, I don't know. I think it's , forb, I don't know

Justin Bogard:

What the for GRA is either. That's a

Richard Thornton:

Weird word. Right. Um, uh , anyway, it didn't pay , uh , and basically work their way out of it. So they are able to sort of do a self restructure. So at thus far, we're not seeing the huge wave that we thought we were going to see that being said, there's still gonna be a lot of product out there. I think we're gonna see a lot of REO , um, and a lot of , uh , foreclosures,

Justin Bogard:

Which do you think you're gonna see more of here in 2022 REOs or NPLS?

Richard Thornton:

Good question. I think, I think that will be specific certain areas. Okay . So the higher cost areas , um, like California , like California, where I am right now, especially the bay area , uh , I would , I would think there that you would see more , uh, EOS , um , because , uh, if people can refinance, they will refinance. And frankly, there's just a lot of money out in here in this, in this market, especially the , this market being all of California , uh, the crypto money and the , uh , tech money , uh, has saved a lot of people's bacon. I mean, you're seeing a lot of people who, who lost their jobs, who had good stock , uh , portfolios who can sell the stock, who can restructure. Uh, and so I think overall volume will be down. But , um , you know, when I say down, I mean, compared to what it was in oh eight, right. But if you're gonna crash, I think you're gonna crash hard. You're not gonna into an NPL . That's just, I guess that's just the way it , it feels, whereas in some markets where you don't have the , that tech money and maybe crypto money rolling around , uh, there, you're gonna see , uh, just maybe more NPLS that'll eventually become REOs.

Justin Bogard:

Okay. As, as you were talking there, I , I was seeing what's the eye , the fence I was on. And I hadn't considered what you said about certain geographical areas, if they were more Oreos or NPLS and you're right. I do agree with you that California would be a great example of the average house in California's gotta be over like a million dollars. It seems like, right. Because of some of the, the very high end cities. Yeah. The

Richard Thornton:

Bay here . I think the median price is 1.2 or 1.3 . Yeah . That's median.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. Median. <laugh> right . You can look that up on Google if you're not sure what the difference between median and average, right. Won't get into discussion on that today. So my, my thought is there's gonna be more NPLS and REOs and, and I do think it's region specific, but I think it's gonna be more NPLS across the country than they are gonna be REOs. And I believe that the banks are just not gonna wanna go through the process of going through the foreclosure. I think they saw the light at the end of the tunnel back in oh 8 0 9 when it was just easier just to sell off the NPL. And it seems like the bigger Fanny and the Freddie , uh , Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack , excuse me. Um , they are selling off some of their inventory. That's delinquent. Now there was a bottleneck before COVID started. Richard, did I ask you that question on purpose? And I don't know if, if you had a chance to answer it, but there were NPLS that were getting ready to go through foreclosure or getting ready to be traded or sold right before COVID happened. And then when COVID happened, kind of everything shut down in general and installed that process. Now those loans, Richard, they could have been easily a couple of years delinquent before COVID even happened. Just imagine in January of 2020, you had loans that were getting ready to go through the, the delinquent , uh , mitigation process within that bank. And they were already two years behind in payments. Now COVID happens. You add another 18 months to that, oh, let's not forget the forbearance , uh , federal mandate that happened as well. Oh , that caused those loans to be kind of forced in for bearance if the, if the borrower wanted to. And so now you have at least four years of delinquencies on some of those loans. Now, granted, some of them could have been, you know, back in 2016 when they stopped paying what have you, let's just make a conservative approach here. So now you have these loans that are gonna be at least to , let's say, six years delinquent. Now. That's interesting.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. I hate to say it, but I've got personal experience there. <laugh> I , I just, I had that exact situation on a deal in Birmingham, Alabama. Okay . That I just sold as REO . And , uh, they hadn't paid for 18 months flipped into COVID. Uh , I couldn't foreclose. Uh, and uh, they decided to do me the favor of trashing the house before they left. And , uh, I sold it as REO .

Justin Bogard:

Okay . Well sometimes this stuff isn't pretty, but no , usually at the end of the day we , we come out looking. Okay. Um , yeah,

Richard Thornton:

I have , I mean, on that one, I actually lost very little, by the time I sold it . This is where the uptick in the market helped. Yeah . I think I lost a couple thousand dollars, so it was not a , not a big deal. And out of all the notes I've had, I've only ever had three defaults , uh , two of which I never lost any money. And that one is , is the one I lost. So overall my portfolio has done, I think

Justin Bogard:

Extremely well. Yeah. Those are really good numbers. <laugh> especially if you've gotten over a hundred , uh , bought and sold over a hundred loans as well. Yeah . That's pretty good default default rate on your portfolio. So this goes to show that sell our financing is a , is very viable option for investing as well. And that's what Richard and I both , and this is for the listener here . Right? Okay. So all that mess is, is , is let's say it's in the ether somewhere and it's, it's getting ready to happen. It's it's going, a lot of states are opening up. A lot of counties are opening up for the judicial process to take effect. And, and by the way, just for the list center , there's a non-judicial process. And there's a judicial process in states. Some states require the judicial process of foreclosure and some states don't require it. Um, the difference is the non-judicial, it's just a lot faster. So just remember that non-judicial equals a lot faster process for , for , right ,

Richard Thornton:

Right.

Justin Bogard:

So now we've got, and I don't know what the numbers are, cuz I haven't read into the exact numbers, but I'm sure it's in the millions of loans that are delinquent that are just sitting there ready to be taking action on whether they're going to be foreclosed by the lending institution or whether they're gonna be traded off to a hedge fund. Who's gonna trade them off to another hedge fund and we can know how the waterfall effect works there. So I don't think I've seen any information that tells me, Richard are all the counties going through allowing foreclosure. Right. Is it some of the counties? Is it all the counties? I don't really know. I , it seems like to me, the counties that I've been researching and running into just in my portfolio, they're allowing foreclosures to happen. Have you seen the same thing? Yeah.

Richard Thornton:

I mean every place I'm invested is there's allowing it. I , I know that there's some counties in Washington state , uh , or the state itself, that's they , they keep extending the foreclosures and things like that. I think it's , uh , spotty across the country. So you'd have to , um, look at your lo local , uh, uh, real estate broker or something like that and say , uh , find out what's what's going on. Uh , before you could really answer that question.

Justin Bogard:

So Richard, my thought on this , no on performing loans coming through here is it's gonna be a slow trickle of not performing loans. I don't think there's gonna be, I don't think the floodgates are gonna open and it's gonna be everything gonna be coming through the county at one time. It seems like it's gonna be a trick , a slow trickle might be a bad word. I don't think it's, I think it's gonna be like a drip. I don't think it's gonna be like a big gush be , cause quite honestly , I haven't really seen it yet.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. I would. I would agree with that. Um, especially because values are up. Um, when we came out of the recession values were down, the banks were looking at , uh, properties in a lot of cases that were underwater. And so they knew that if they sold it, they , they wanted to sell it quite because they knew they weren't gonna get anything out of it. And to hold onto it just , um, increase the pain. Now though , uh, they've got in a lot of cases, increased values so they can afford to hold onto or they'll wanna hold onto it a little bit longer. Now there's a whole lot of technicalities with banks and to their lending ratios and uh, their reserve requirements. And so they don't wanna hold onto , um, too many because it affects their reserve requirements , uh , and then affects the amount of money that they can lend. And we don't need to get into all that <laugh> right . But the fact is that that I user are up. So they're going to want to piecemeal those out a little more slowly so that they can get their full dollar , uh , out of their mortgages.

Justin Bogard:

Okay . All right . We got REOs, we got MPOs. We've discussed what they are. We've discussed kind of what happens before COVID what happened , what , what we think is gonna happen after COVID obviously we don't have a crystal ball. So what do you like better going forward? Do you like the REO purchase or do you like the NPO purchase?

Richard Thornton:

Well, I think everybody has to answer that question individually. Okay . Uh , and you have to look at a number of number of factors. One, you have to look at your own background. Um, have you been a lender? Do you know anything about lending mm-hmm <affirmative> uh , would you be teaching yourself , uh , what to do? Uh, if you bought an NPL, I mean, a lot of people , uh , jump in this and really don't know a whole lot about loan terms and what possibilities are in restructuring mm-hmm <affirmative> . So if you don't know a lot of that, it can be kind of painful to , to learn it. So what you might wanna do is jump into R EO, as opposed to, if you have a little bit of lending experience or feel like you know about that you might want to do NPLS , um, there's pluses and minuses to both mm-hmm <affirmative> . And , um , do you want to discuss that now? Or what would you like to do?

Justin Bogard:

What do you wanna do? Do you wanna get into R E O or do you wanna get into NPL going forward?

Richard Thornton:

Well, personally , um , I wanna get into NPLS. Uh , the reason being , uh , you have more, I think flexibility now , um , R EEO is gonna be a little bit , uh , cheaper than an NPL is because you have more certainty. Everything we try and do is risk and reward, right. Uh , if you buy an R O uh , you don't have to do anything with a judicial process and the foreclosure process , uh , it's a clean slate. You may have structural problems. Um , quite often if you bid something in auction or even if you just buy it from a bank and it's already R E O you don't, especially if it's outta state , uh , you can't inspect it. Uh, it may have , um, uh, flaws , uh, that you can't see. Um, inspectors don't always find everything. I bought a , a property in , uh , Illinois that was Ariel once. Um, and the inspector neglected to tell me that , um, all the HVA stuff had been moved out. Uh , the piping was stripped out of it. Oh, nice. And it had no water heater, you know, just a little things like that. Little thanks . Yeah, yeah. That you think an inspector would get, but you know, this guy was busy and , and basically didn't want to go inside. So, but that being said, if you buy REO , you have fewer moving parts. Whereas if you buy an NPL , uh, you can, you can guesstimate that the house is going to be in better condition because it's occupied, somebody's living in it. Right. Um, and you have the flexibility of working with that person. So you can restructure , um, you can ask them to , you can , uh , evict or, or whatever else, but , uh , it's, it can be , uh , an easier path for you having to do less renovation and things like that. So that's, those are the pluses of NPLS. You're probably gonna have to pay more for 'em than

Justin Bogard:

REO. Okay . Why do you think that is? You explained that a little bit earlier, but I want to kind of dive into that.

Richard Thornton:

Well, you're gonna have to pay for more be because , um, you have , uh, well, you , how do I want to say this? You , you have more flexibility in other words , um, as I mentioned before, you have a property that's probably occupied. If it's occupied, it's probably in a decent , uh, condition as supposed to something that has been trashed , um, and, or may have serious flaws in it. Uh , I mean, you , and you have the possibility to talk with X, Y , Z borrower and say, Hey, look, can we restructure , um, can we do whatever? And basically, you know, in 30 to 60 days, you go outta an operable loan , that's working just fine. Whereas with an REO you don't have that flexibility.

Justin Bogard:

Richard, thanks for explaining on that. Those are, those are some great details and explaining , uh , your thought process on the NPL today, why you would, or wouldn't do it the plus and minuses of R EOS and NPOs. Um, I don't, I don't see how the NPO would be more expensive than the REO. I've listened to what you said. And I don't, I don't see that. I think the NPL will be cheaper. Uh , I personally moving forward will be looking more towards NPLS for the similar reasons for Richard said, because us, me being a note investor I'm knowledgeable and experienced in the process of NPL. So it doesn't, it doesn't scare me. I , I know , I know what to do if , if I was on the other side of the fence and I wasn't a note investor or didn't have experience, I would definitely lean towards the R O because it's easier, right. Less moving parts, like you said, which was a great point. Um, but I think the MPL will still be cheaper than the R O and I guess my reasons for saying that is that , uh , for it to become an R R O it was an MPO before that. And if it was an NPL and if I was buying it, I, I would have the intention, especially in today's market, that if I bought it and it didn't work out to where the borrower couldn't renegotiate the terms with what we offered when they didn't wanna do a , uh , you know, if they wanna do a Dean Lu or , or go through the foreclosure, I, I would think that it's gonna be much more valuable to me as an REO and a I'll be able to make more money on it because I can take it back with the appreciation that's going on, especially with these really good neighborhoods when these bar wars are there. Uh , I feel like I would make more money. So I think the REO would be a little bit , um , more expensive than buying the NPL. Yeah.

Richard Thornton:

Those are all really good points and something else. Um, uh , I didn't mention mm-hmm <affirmative> is , uh , is , is where do you want to invest? Do you want to invest in your backyard or , or outta state? Yeah . Uh , if you've got some renovation experience and you're not afraid of that process, and there are good deals in your backyard. If I were to do deals , uh, here by REO here in California, in California , um, if , as long of them more towards the coast, it's a pretty big ticket. You know , I'm probably gonna have to roll in there with the half million dollars , a hundred thousand or so, and I can make, you know, good money, but , um, I have to, I have to have a big bank roll if I moved more into Southern California or not Southern California, I'm sorry, central California. I could probably buy a house for maybe 300,000 and put 50 or 70,000 into it. So it's a lot, lot less expensive, but that for me is a two hour drive. Right. Um, so if you're living like you are in the Midwest or something like that, you can look in your area and find REOs , uh, that you can , uh , inspect. Uh, you can, you know, you don't care if an inspector, you can look at it and say, oh, geez , this , uh , you know , is missing X, Y, or Z, or, or , or needs this and get a good , um , feel for it. Then you very well may wanna do AEOs all day long, cuz it's a , it's an easier execution from that standpoint.

Justin Bogard:

No , that that's a good point and a great explanation because I would feel more comfortable having a non-performing loan from a distance across the country than I would in AEO. Right. For the reasons that you mentioned, I having boots on the ground, or you personally touching the asset or looking at the asset as an R O I feel a lot more comfortable doing that than I would , um, doing that from a distance. I definitely feel more comfortable doing an NPL from a distance. So I guess that's another reason why I would do the NPL to, to go back and answer that question. Uh , so yeah. Great points, Richard.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. And so , um, one other thing we should mention too, is if you're going to do something from a distance , um, and when I say not performing notes, I mean NPLS or REO mm-hmm <affirmative> , you probably should focus on an area. So focus on Des Moines or focus on Indianapolis or whatever, choose your criteria based on or what , whatever else , uh , you think is, is relevant. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but get a team. Um, so know that you've got a contractor or two in your back pocket, right ? Know that you've got somebody , uh , that's good for title and, and things like that because otherwise if you're scattered all over, you're trying to find somebody new and frankly, you're gonna get fleeced. I mean, I can't tell you the number, the first couple of, of , uh , distant , um , renovations I tried to do , uh, I got extremely inflated numbers for property clean out and things like that. And , uh , they were legitimate know they were doing their job , uh , because they had to contact somebody locally and blah, blah, blah mm-hmm <affirmative> . But if I had had somebody in my back pocket that wanted to do repeat what , right . My cost would've been half of what they were.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. That's something you definitely have to be care . Take , uh , be careful of Richard. Uh , I wanna switch gears here for a second. And I wanna talk about , um, us being note investors and for the listener here that it's interested getting into note investing , um, do you have any like go-to material as far as a book or , um, information or an individual that puts out, you know, information that you go to , um, to kind of get some, some good sourcing information to learn about note investing?

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. Um, thanks for asking the question I actually do on my , uh , my website , uh , amnotecap .com . It's WW dot AMnotecap .com . Uh, I've got a , uh , booklet that says, so you can invest in mortgage notes. Um, I've got another book that I've actually written , uh, that gives you all the, the , um, basic information it's focused on performing notes. Mm-hmm <affirmative> , but it also, it gives you, it lays out all the basics so that you get to know all the terms and, and things like got . So , uh, I also have a , um, uh , American note , uh , capital, the name of my company , um, YouTube channel. And I've got, I think, 21 videos on there now. And you can learn a lot from those. One of them is just, it's a series of nine. Me just sitting at my desk, talking about , uh , investing in notes, what to look for and things like that. It's nothing fancy, but it's , uh , most people find it very informative. Awesome.

Justin Bogard:

Thanks Richard, for sharing that , um, that's kinda all the time we got here for today's episode, Richard, thanks for coming on episode number two of our newly rebranded, be the bank podcast, forming the two wealth show and , uh, thanks for always being my friend and a and a ear , um , to listen to when I got issues or problems and talk through it. I really appreciate it, Richard.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah, I appreciate the friendship and the , the collegiality also. So it's , um , it's a good partnership.

Justin Bogard:

All right , Richard, thanks again so much for being on episode number two and for the listener, we will see you next time.

Richard Thornton:

Great. Thanks very much byebye.

Justin Bogard:

Thanks for listening to be the bank. We hope you learn something from today's show. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us. Plus check out our bright path notes channel on YouTube and follow us on Facebook and Twitter at be the bank. And on Instagram be the bank podcast. Be the bank is sponsored by bright path notes. Thanks again for listening.