Be The Bank

021 - Know Your Numbers

November 18, 2020 Justin Bogard & Super E Season 2 Episode 21
Be The Bank
021 - Know Your Numbers
Show Notes Transcript

2 Wealth Show S2 Ep21 - Know Your Numbers

Justin Bogard and Super E discuss positive and negatives of their current industries and businesses.

Key Takeaways:  

  1. Being Authentic
  2. Indiana Housing Provider
  3. Refinancing

 Resources and links discussed  

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About the Hosts 

Justin Bogard – Note Investor specializing in performing Residential Real Estate Debt. He finds deals and acquires them for his own portfolio as well as educates investors while walking them through the process of owning a Real Estate Note!  

Super E – Real Estate Investor specializing in short-term rentals and the management of them. She connects investors with short-term tenants and manages everything in-between.

Connect with the Hosts: 

  • @2wealthshow – Facebook/Instagram 
  • @wealth_show - Twitter 
Justin Bogard:

Welcome to the, 2 wealth show a show that shares how you can create real wealth for you and your family. I'm one of your hosts, Justin Bogard. And my co-host is Elizabeth Sickles, AKA super E. I am a real estate note investor specializing in performing residential real estate debt. I find the deals, acquire them for my own portfolio, as well as educate investors while walking them through the process of owning a real estate note. My co-host super E, a real estate investor specializing in short-term rentals and the management of them. She connects investors with short-term tenants and manages everything in between. Our show was sponsored by bright path notes and Elizabeth May aura. You can find out more information by visiting our websites at brightpathnotess.com and elizabethmaora.com. Hey, this is Justin Bogard from BrightPath notes. Co-host on the two Wealth show and I am Elizabeth with Elizabeth. Excuse me? I'll do that again. I am Elizabeth with Elizabeth Maora. Episode 21. All right. It's okay to fumble Elizabeth. I'm sure I've done it a couple of times. Didn't realize it. So you guys know listening or watching on YouTube. Um, we don't really edit a lot of things out, so you're, you're kind of getting, getting what we give you, you know, that's right. Take 45. Ready go. That's right. So how have you been, I've been good. We've got a, a lot of things going on, which is exciting. Um, yeah, looking at new software, um, you know, um, the good side. So, you know, we're always interested in being more efficient on both for the team and anything that will make it better for our guests. You know, it's funny, you mentioned that because I, myself am trying to figure out, like we have a piece of software that somebody kind of custom made for us. That was, that was in the real estate, no business. And I'm ready for like additional features to be added on and start pulling an automation with different reports and documents. Cause you know, in the note business, uh, there's just a lot of paperwork involved in it. And paperwork is crucial to have basically a hundred percent accuracy because once it leaves your hand and it's signed with a wet signature, it's a really pain, uh, but to go back and amend it or fix it or correct it, and that's a, that's a process you don't want to have to go through, you can do it just so everyone knows it's it's you, it is an easy Fix. It's just time consuming and things can get lost in the weeds pretty quickly. So that's, that's what I've been working on as well as figuring out if I can get somebody to program a few documents just to pull data from our database. So we don't have to, you know, manually type it in again, um, just for, you know, for our agreements and things like that and how we convey documents from owner to owner.

Elizabeth Maora:

You know, what's interesting, Justin is we had so PMS, which is a property management system. We had the number one in the vacation rental industry and I put that on hold in, may just, you know, everything going on. So we implemented it last year. It was very time consuming, very expensive. And what's interesting is that, so like I said, it's been on hold since may, so we're doing more things manually, but we're actually quicker like doing our profit and loss statements at the end of the month for our clients. We're quicker doing it ourselves and we're really, we're actually, we're more efficient. So it's kind of interesting that, you know, I spent all this money for us to have this software and work better without it. So I would just, you know, kind of caution our viewers and our listeners that, you know, software sounds great. Right. And it sounds fantastic to have, and I'm all about technology, but at the end of the day, and I would have known that I'm glad that we went through the exercise and at anytime we can turn it back on, but just kind of keep that in mind too. It's not always better.

Justin Bogard:

That's really interesting. I've heard of that happening to people before at different companies, but I was just going to say, you answered what I was going to say was I'm sure. Glad I'm sure that you were glad that you went through that process so you can compare it and be like, well, we do it, we're doing it the same way. And we're obviously meeting our metrics where we need to be versus having the software do it for us, but that's good that you went through it. I mean, it's, I guess it's a, it's a pain that it has to cost you some money, but like you said, you can turn it back on if you need to in the future. So,

Elizabeth Maora:

And even now on the cleaning side of the business, we were looking at a lot of different softwares because with the residential cleaning, we want our clients to be able to book online and you know, again, that's just efficient. We don't have to go to the actual property quote it. Um, so that's really cool. But even on that side, I'm kind of, I'm holding off a little bit on the software to make sure that that we're good. Um, in some other areas first, so sometimes you want to be really quick at things, but sometimes waiting is better.

Justin Bogard:

That's good. So do you, is that same system you have? Is it like a CRM type of system, a customer? I think it's relationship management system as well, or is it just for the, the crucial business tools?

Elizabeth Maora:

It's just where the crucial business. Okay. And I apologize. I was just looking around for some reason my screen got really dim.

Justin Bogard:

I can still see you just fine.

Elizabeth Maora:

Okay. Okay. Awesome. Thank you. Sorry about that gang.

Justin Bogard:

If this technology, as soon as you mentioned technology, your computer shut down on you, you can't talk bad about it.

Elizabeth Maora:

That's right.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. So, Elizabeth, um, I think one of the things that we both want to tackle today was just talking about kind of the, the positive and the negatives going on, either specific to our companies or even within our industries as to what's going on right now. And I thought that'd be, well, we both would thought that would be a fun topic to, of kind of talk about. So I would like you to kind of lead in on this to talk about just some, uh, I guess some of the, not so positive things, kind of negative things that are going on either, you know, to the business or to the industry, as well as, uh, you know, today, which is we're recording this at the end of October, just so the audience knows.

Elizabeth Maora:

Yes. So we want to be, you know, part of our, part of our mission at Elizabeth Maora is being authentic. So, you know, in that we talk about the not so good things. And one of the things that's really unfortunate is you all know that we're running a really cool rehab in the Irvington neighborhood. And something that we found out last week was that we are most likely going to have to remove the existing siding, which includes asbestos siding from the property, um, that comes with a whole lot of remediation and then put on what would have been original wood siding. So we're getting quotes for all that. I mean, but at any rate, we're looking at an additional 10 to$25,000. Wow. So it's, it's huge, absolutely huge. So anytime you're dealing with a historic district, um, or, you know, historic permitting and stuff like that uh it's, it can be quite expensive.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. I've heard of that before I personally, haven't done any sort of remodel rehab in a historic district, but I have heard exactly what you said that it's just, you know, it's so beautiful when it's done and everything is as authentic or original as it can be, but yeah, you can't take any shortcuts. Can you, it's all, it's all about following that process and it has to be these certain windows. And like you just said with the asbestos note, you got to put up, you know, this sort of siding now when you take that off and, um, yeah. I mean, it's there for a reason, but yeah, it's, you have to anticipate those unknown costs, you know, going into it. And I can see a lot of people getting floored because of it.

Elizabeth Maora:

Absolutely. And so I just want to encourage all of our followers that if you are doing a rehab, no, most people say, Hey, add 10%, but I would encourage you to add 25 to 30% of whatever you is, a worst case. Wow. Yes. It's very unfortunate.

Justin Bogard:

So this is probably another reason why my strong suit isn't being a rehabber because I don't, I don't know how, how people in the fix and flip business are making, um, you know, good profits on things right now, especially on the homes that are, you know, under, I would say probably 125,000, you know, all in it just, it doesn't seem like with the stuff that you're describing, maybe it's not in a historical district, but if it's just in a, um, a typical area, there still are things that you have to rules and, and things you have to go by, right. With, with permits and stuff. And, you know, once you get into something with electrical or plumbing, you know, then you have to have, you know, different permitting, then you have to pull the whole thing out and change it over, especially if it's knob and tube. And so it can get real dicey real quick. So it's something that I've done before, but I definitely wasn't built for it, like, uh, like a, like a company. So my hats off to the people that make it happen, but I don't see how good the margins are. So maybe I'm not seeing it as profitable as it, as it really is, but it doesn't seem to me that things are things of that profitable to fix and flip business because, you know, the real estate values are so high, but they're also selling so high when they're, when they're dilapidated or blighted, if you will.

Elizabeth Maora:

And that's why it's always important to know your numbers. So what are you looking for? Right? Are you, are you buying hold? Are you looking at appreciation? Which that's where you build your wealth? You know, you don't build it whenever you're flipping, flipping, flipping properties all the time, but, um, you know, we're, the clients bought it at a really, they bought it at a really good price, so they're still going to be okay, but, you know, but still it, this is timing, right. Which adds to their holding costs and, and everything. And one of the things too, you know, there's that saying? That there's always a way, but I have made a ton of phone calls also. And man, when I, HP says, you're going to do it one way, like you're going to do it that way, or you're not going to do it at all. So no matter where you're doing your, you know, your flips or even if it's a buy and hold and you're remodeling it, just make sure you know, the rules and kind of the things that could happen.

Justin Bogard:

Elizabeth, just, just for the quick acronym INHP, is that Indianapolis neighborhood housing provider or partnership

Elizabeth Maora:

Indianapolis housing provider. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And just one thing to Justin and for our listeners, it's kind of interesting because we have a second floor where we've, we moved the master up to the second floor and actually our person now is also saying that we might need to have skylights, um, egress. So egress means that you can get out of the building, um, which there would not be skylights in a historical property. And you know, if,

Justin Bogard:

If Spider-Man and spider pig and spider girl were living there, maybe that would make sense. Right. Cause they could just climb on the ceiling and get out that way. That was a bad joke. I'm sorry. Somebody asked to be laughing, listening to this right now. I know that doesn't make any sense to me, but Hey, you know, a lot of things don't make sense to me. It doesn't mean that I'm right or wrong. I just doesn't make sense. That is funny that I've not heard of that. So egress windows on the skylight.

Elizabeth Maora:

Yeah. So, you know, we don't know how our guests would actually get up to window cause it's kind of the point of egress is it's an easy way. You're not providing like a, like an 18 foot, uh, telescoping ladder. We provide ladders that go out the window on anything that's two floors and above, but you never know what you're going to run into in the housing business.

Justin Bogard:

That's interesting. Well, um, but no,

Elizabeth Maora:

I was just going to say, how, how about you, what's something good or bad going on in the note business that maybe our listeners,

Justin Bogard:

Well, maybe a couple of things, I guess I would touch on maybe the, the I'm gonna call it. The pink elephant in the room is, you know, the, the mortgage and the rental industry, as it relates to people paying on the debt or the rent, it is assumed that it's a bad situation. And I believe, um, well I know that the media and the Facebook community of people that aren't really tied into the business are really given it a negative spin and making it look like it's a lot worse than it is. Um, we've talked about this a couple of times on a couple of different episodes and the facts still remain that the numbers, even for the rent data and the mortgage borrower payment data, still show strong signs that tenants and borrowers are still making payments and only they're making payments, but more people are making payments. And I would, I would argue that it's in the 80 to 85%, um, tenant collection range. And it's, it's in the high eighties to low mid nineties for the borrowers making their mortgage payments, uh, as it relates to the, the whole national spectrum, not just isolated, like to Indianapolis or the pockets of where we invest in specifically, but there is a lot of misinformation out there and it's unfortunate because some people just get one media stream of information and it really can confuse the mind as to what's going on. But I would say that's probably the biggest, um, thing going on in our industry. As far as that, um, us as a business, you know, we have our challenges too. We, we have, um, you know, right now our, our software isn't, isn't really capable doing a lot of high end things like we, like we touched at the beginning of the conversation today. And so one of the struggles that we have kind of internally is just being able to, um, do what we call post-closing, which is after we purchased a real estate note or we sell a real estate. No, there's a, there's a part of that documentation that has to follow it because you're recording some things and some things you're not recording, and you want to be able to collect those things from a seller. And you want to make sure that you have everything that you need to keep in your collateral file. Because as you know, Elizabeth, the worst case scenario is going through foreclosure. And when you go on in front of a judge or your attorney goes in front of the judge, you just want to have all of your documentation that you need to go there. And sometimes it can be a little challenging to get all that information, um, you know, organize and complete. Um, it's not that you can't get it as it's sometimes it's challenging. So I guess that's, that's one of the struggles that we have when we closed a lot of loans. It starts to become, you really have to pay attention to what we're collecting and make sure things are moving down the line. Because our, our investors that work with us, you know, they're not everyday note investors like, like myself, they're looking for passive income, I'm looking for ways to grow their wealth and we want to teach them and show them those things. So then we, you know, we kind of offer assistance and like, look, let us just help you get through this first deal where there's a lot of things that you just don't know what you don't know. And we want you to benefit from our knowledge and experience and get you through to that, getting that first payment and making sure you have what you need going forward, because we're always a resource for them as well. But at the same time, you know, that's, that's a struggle, a little bit of a struggle in itself because I haven't found, uh, an efficient way to do it. There's just a way to get it done. And it's just one of those things that you've got to tackle and figure out if there was like, you know, thousands and thousands of people that have a real estate note business, maybe somebody would have, you know, a piece of software or something figured out what the process, you know, kind of like with real estate brokers, you know, with, they have really good systems and processes for handling, you know, title closings and paperwork and stuff. So one of these days, I'm sure the note business we'll get to that point, but that's probably one of the biggest, um, struggles to where you just really have to, you have to be laser-focused is you can't really make an air, right? If you make an air, you don't want to discover it 10 years down the road, you'd rather just get it fixed right then and there and take it forward. So that's, that's kind of one of the things that's my sticking point is that I make sure like we buy a deal or sell a deal at that paperwork is just a hundred percent accurate to the best of our knowledge and get it moving forward to the next person doesn't have any struggles.

Elizabeth Maora:

What is the shortest time that, you know, one of your clients? So two questions, what's the shortest amount of time. One of your clients holds a note and what's the longest time just average

Justin Bogard:

Typ typically our clients are at least wanting to have this stuff for, you know, five to 10 years in their portfolio. Um, we tell them, you know, on someone is either refinancing or selling their home every seven to nine years. So we know ultimately, you know, it's not guaranteed, but these mortgages are going to pay off well before their maturity date. And that's really when they're going to recycle their cash and make it make a better yield on their money, as opposed to looking, you know, 25 years down the road in the future. So some, some clients want investors, uh, prefer to do partials and, and, and, uh, recoup their investment maybe a little bit earlier if they can sell it to another family member or a friend and some just like to hold onto it and just build their wealth. I mean, I'd say most of them wanted to hold it and just let it grow until they actually reached retirement. And they have a sizable amount of cashflow coming in to where it's, you know, they can live off of, uh, a little bit of it and the rest of it, they can just recycle and let it continue to grow with buying more notes and stuff.

Elizabeth Maora:

Okay.

Justin Bogard:

So I guess in the short sense, I'd say like, you know, maybe five years in the long sense, it's probably just, it's just building the wealth. You know, I don't know if I showed you our ten-year model, but we projected like with a$200,000 investment, like what that looks like after 10 years, just rolling it into notes and never really touching it or adding to it and just letting it build on its own and then watching the exponential growth. That's pretty cool. So we're actually building a video to showcase how that, how that looks in a more, you know, um, video friendly format, I guess. So it's not like a presentation it's just, you know, more cartoony and visual, but, uh, it's, it's pretty cool. It really, it shows the power of performing loans.

Elizabeth Maora:

And then, sorry, do you, so one of your clients, do you do that automatically for them reinvesting it? Or how does that work?

Justin Bogard:

It kind of depends. We have different buckets that, that, uh, investors fall into. You know, we have extremely passive investors that just like, look, Justin, I got a full-time job. I run a company. I don't really need to learn the note business. I just want to benefit from it. And then they're in one category to where we kind of help them and help manage what they're doing, you know, obviously for a fee and consulting work. And we have people that want to take title to it and want to own it and take accountability for it. And they, and they get this paperwork and they run through it themselves, but I'm always here as a resource for them. You know, when they're not, they're not in the dark trying to figure it out on their own or, you know, God bless them. They all try to figure it out on the internet. And, you know, you can only, you can only get what you pay for with, you know, free information on the internet. So it's just, you know, there's a lot of things that people do that aren't really what you should do or really how you should think, you know, as far as investing in this stuff. But, um, you know, when they land with us, we just, we just tell them with our experience, this is what happens when we buy this type of note and you're probably going to get these results. And we're pretty, we're pretty accurate with that.

Elizabeth Maora:

That's great. And you know, it's nice that you do have the couple of different buckets that your clients fit into. So yeah, I mean, everybody,

Justin Bogard:

We talked to, they have a different end game in mind, right? Just like the people that you talk to Elizabeth, and when you raise money and stuff, everyone is looking for a different type of return or they D they need to, to this, to accommodate their lifestyle of where they want to be. And so we can accommodate that by partnering with them in different ways, whether it's just selling them something and they're on their own, which is perfectly fine, or partnering with them, or maybe selling them part of a loan that we have, and we own the back end and we're kind of in there with them. Um, there's just different ways to do it. And, and, and obviously the higher the activity, the higher the reward, right. But you're also, you know, banking on the fact that you kind of know a little bit what you're doing too. So this kind of a, it's kind of a give and take there. So most clients end up working with us. We kind of walk them through the process. We buy a few deals for them, and eventually they start getting more comfortable with taking more steps on their own. And then hopefully, eventually they can start doing this stuff on their own and not, and not really have to worry about it less. They have these anomalies that pop up and they need help getting through something. But that's generally what happens is we, we kind of are tailored for the first time investor.

Speaker 2:

Okay. That's awesome. And obviously you're rolling. So what's something good in the business. Well,

Justin Bogard:

Right now there, we've talked about this before in a few podcasts back in early March, how seller financing is so strong, it's still strong today. And a lot, there's a lot of burned out landlords right now. And a lot of them are discovering that, um, they liked the idea of being the bank better, but they not sure how to make it turn their rental situation into kind of a mortgage cashflowing situation. And so what's good about the business that we're in is that we can help, you know, bridge the gap with what they're trying to do so we can show them how to convert, you know, tenants into borrowers and creating note mortgages, you know, them stepping back and being the bank. And there's just been more and more of those opportunities this year that I've, I've seen in the, in the, you know, the last, you know, three or four years that I've really been focused in this business. Um, and so that's a good sign to me that we're all creating better loans and I'm teaching people how to create really good loans so that they can sell them in the future if they want. And they won't have to take such a hefty discount in the future when they sell it to somebody.

Elizabeth Maora:

That's awesome. Congrats.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, but everything is looking pretty good in the mortgage business right now. Our, um, default rate is below 7%. It's been that way for about two months now, which is a positive sign. It's slowly creeping down the, the black, uh, black Knight financial data. There are a company that basically takes all the mortgage data across the country and they aggregate it and they figure out these numbers based on tons of metrics. And they're predicting that this is just going to be a very slow taper of default rate, getting back down to normalcy, which is probably around the four, four and a half percent window right around there. And so they predict it's probably going to take about 18 months to get back down to whatever normal normal is, maybe sooner, but they're just, they're predicting based on what's been happening last three months on a three month based window that it's just going to take a long time to get back down. But the good news is that we don't see a reason for defaults to go up. Uh, we just see it just taking just slowly tapering back down. So there's going to be an opportunity in the future for some non-performing loans to roll through. Um, everyone keeps asking me like, when are they going to happen? We don't know because banks hold onto these, this debt for a certain amount of time, so they can, they can charge it down and they can recoup some of their, you know, their insurance on it. And there's a whole process with that with the bank industry, then they're going to sell it to someone that's got a heck of a lot more money than any of us have, you know, billions of dollars. And then they're going to sell it off to someone that's a little bit less money, you know, and so on and so forth. So that takes a while to get down to where we can start buying this stuff, but that's probably, um, you know, maybe next year on this time, we'll probably have a different conversation.

Elizabeth Maora:

That's great news. I just saw this morning, actually. So again, we're recording this at the very end of October, but this morning, um, one of the articles I read was that we're down to the same job lists or the unemployment rate as we were in March. So that's, and that's nationwide. That's not just the state of Indiana, so that's federal, um, and that's phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. So it, you know, so that kind of goes right in with what you're saying, Dustin. So it's nice that, you know, those, those are correlating. So

Justin Bogard:

I think, and I know we're running out of time on this episode, but I think quickly that we should, we should also point out and I'm sure you agree with me on this, is that the reason why we haven't been as negatively affected in any of our industries, as far as it relates to real estate is because the fact that real estate values have been so resilient during this time, they either have been consistent or they have still been rising. So what that does is it creates what we call tappable equity in peoples and people's homes. So even if somebody has to go through forbearance, even if they're struggling, their equity is still rising every month by, you know, whatever fraction of a percent or a percent, depending on what area you're in. And so that creates an opportunity for them to escape that potential default situation and refinance, because how low are the numbers right now? The numbers are historically low for refinances. So go out, get yourself a 3% refinanceable loan. You can refinance out of that debt, maybe lower that payment or extend, You know, payments, um, the back of the loan. And you can get out of this forbearance. So the, a lot of these numbers that have been showing people like there's been about, I'd say 35% to 40% of the forbearances that happened. Maybe there was like four or 5 million that happens since March. Those have been reprieve forming because of that tappable equity that they have, they're able to escape it. They can sell the house and not be underwater and they can refinance and still be okay and still meet their, you know, their loan devalues. So that's, I think that's a major, major region reason why we have not seen a really bad real estate situation is because of the, how resilient real estate has been.

Elizabeth Maora:

Wow. That's, that's a really great point, Justin, thank you for making that and totally agree. Yeah.

Justin Bogard:

So I don't think we touched on, you know, the, kind of the positives going on in the short-term world or in Elizabeth maora's world.

Elizabeth Maora:

So one of the things that's really interesting is, you know, I wish I've been talking a lot on the podcast that, you know, your numbers know your numbers because when you're building a business, you're, you're in the business, you're not working on the business. So this year I've been able to get back a little pit and actually look at my numbers and what are they saying? So one of the things that actually Caitlin and I just went through this morning, we had an opportunity to be a host and property manager of I'll just call it multiple. So it was more than five properties here in Indianapolis. They're nice properties. Um, but when we actually look at the numbers, it's not worth it. So what's, what's better for us is a very nice one property. That's very, very nice. It doesn't have to be luxury, but just, um, you know, again, just really nice. So it's nice to be able to actually step back and do that analysis beforehand, to be able to tell our clients, you know, we'd love to have these properties and add them to our portfolio, but it's not a fit. So, um, and when you do that, just so you know, we're, we've come up with a couple of solutions for them. Um, you know, we don't ever want to just tell somebody no. Um, but it is, it's such a great feeling as the business owner to be able to take that step back and, you know, cause yes, I am working on the business in, in this aspect.

Justin Bogard:

Excellent. Okay.

Elizabeth Maora:

Yeah, that would just happen this morning. So nice when you get to that point. So just know if you're just starting in real estate or no matter, no matter where you are in some type of a business that you will get there. So just, you know, keep up the hard work and get to the point where you can be working on the business.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. It's this, that, that steady motion of just make sure you're moving forward in that direction and you will get there. Yeah. Some people, it takes 25 years. Some people, it can be really quick, but that's definitely the point that you strive for. So, um, Elizabeth, I think we are at a time for today. Do you have any closing thoughts for today's uh, episode number 21?

Elizabeth Maora:

Know we are into the fall here. So, um, I see in Indiana, so I would just, if, if you can take some time to have some hot chocolate or a cup of coffee and just watch the leaves fall for a little bit and enjoy the beautiful color.

Justin Bogard:

It is. My favorite time of the year is fall. Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

Elizabeth Maora:

Well, thank you everybody.

Justin Bogard:

All right, buddy. I'm Justin Bogart from bright path notes. Co-host on a two Wealth show. Don't forget to watch the video of this on the bright path notes, YouTube channel or Elizabeth Maora's YouTube channel is what

Elizabeth Maora:

That's right. Thank you everybody. I'm Elizabeth with Elizabeth Maora. They were in Justin's cohost.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. All right. Episode 21 in the books guys, till next time. See you later too. We'll show is produced by Justin Bogard and super E sponsored by Brightpath notes and Elizabeth, Maora. Thanks for listening and watching for our show.