Be The Bank

008 - Turn Up the Heat on the Beef Stew

April 20, 2022 Justin Bogard Season 4 Episode 8
Be The Bank
008 - Turn Up the Heat on the Beef Stew
Show Notes Transcript

Be The Bank S4 Ep8 - Turn Up the Heat on the Beef Stew

On episode 8 of season 4,  Justin Bogard interviews Richard Thornton.

 Key Takeaways:  

  1. Crazy Housing Market
  2. Crypto Millionaires
  3. Invest in a Place Where You Get Really Good Comps

 Resources and links discussed  

 About the Host

 Justin Bogard – Note Investor specializing in performing Residential Real Estate Debt. He finds deals and acquires them for his own portfolio as well as educates investors while walking them through the process of owning a Real Estate Note!  

  Connect with the Host: 

Justin Bogard:

Interested in real estate. How about wealth? Well, they go hand in hand and here you'll learn all about it , about it. Welcome to be the bank, a podcast where we discuss and debate the topics centered around real estate. Investing your host, Justin Bogard shares insights into investing in real estate to create real wealth and path of income for you and your family. He'll share stories of real estate investments done, right? Walk you through the process of owning a real estate note , and most importantly, educate you so you can be the bank , your bank . This is be the bank brought to you by bright path notes. Now here's your host, Justin , Bogard. Welcome to episode number eight of the, be the bank podcast season number four. And I'm gonna have my friend Richard Thornton on here in a minute, and we're gonna talk about interest rates and what they're doing right now. And what does that mean? And what does that really affect when it comes to real estate? And obviously it has other economical impact things. So stay tuned and you will hear all about it. This episode is brought to you by bright path notes, Richard . Good morning. Good afternoon to you. How are you?

Richard Thornton:

Good morning. I'm good. Thank you. I've um , I think we've probably switched , uh , situations. Weather-wise it is cold, gloomy and rainy here in Northern California. Oh, we need the rain. So that's a good thing.

Justin Bogard:

Um , oh , okay.

Richard Thornton:

I imagine you're having much better weather than

Justin Bogard:

We are, you know, the sun is out today, but it's very, very windy today. Um , so I'm, I'm recording here in the camper today. And so I felt it kinda rock a little bit. <laugh> doing a little , a little pre pregame session. So I was like, okay , well I'm hooked up to battery power. So I , if things go out, at least I can still, you know , stay live on the recording here. So , right . Thanks for hopping on today. Like I said , this is episode number eight, brought to you, Bright. Path notes . And , and so you've been on before, so we don't really need to go through your bio and stuff. You've been on a couple times, but for the, for the interest of , uh , my listening audience here. So you kind of have a specialty from , uh , your past, which is kind of in, I'll just call it commercial lending as general, if you want to specify it, you , you can. But , um, what I think is , is very interesting right now is how the interest rates have kind of creeped up , uh , right now. And as of the bank rate data that I looked at today, as of recording this on April 14th, it says there's a 5.06% interest rate as a national average for consumers on 30 year loans.

Richard Thornton:

Right? So, so 60 days ago you could get , uh , uh , 30 year fixed at a full , um , percentage point less , uh , than you can right now, which means the fed is , uh , moving pretty quickly. They are all these supply chain problems we're having , uh , are causing them some angst. Um, and they wanna cool things down a little bit.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah, it's I, I feel like since the past, I don't know, five, six years, it's just been feeling like, okay, the interest rates anywhere from two to 3%, that's pretty low. And whether I get a two other got 3% percent , I'm , I'm happy either way. And now that it's jumped up close to five, I'm thinking, oh, wow, that , that feels a lot more aggressive than what I was used to seeing like every day and people talk about interest rates. So for me, Richard, it's crept up quite a bit to where I wasn't paying attention to it cuz I'm not getting personal loans right now. And so to me, it just , it was very interesting. So I don't know what your take on it. If you had been monitoring it that closely when it hit over five.

Richard Thornton:

Well, we have to look at it historically when I I'm dating myself here. But when I , uh, originally started , uh , lending back in the eighties , um , Paul Voker was , uh, uh, just finishing up his , uh, uh , Ty rate on , um , raising rates and, and things like that. And , um, as you've heard me say before short term rates were as high as 21%. Um, and there was his program bought and brought inflation to a screeching halt . Um, the biggest thing though back those days was that we were in a , a smaller fishbowl. We didn't have the globalization that we have today. So we were more insulated from international rates. Okay . So there was, it was easier just as doesn't take much water to increase the level of a fish fishbowl, but if you got a huge lake or an ocean to get a , a little bit of rise out of that, it takes a lot more , um , water. Um, and so globalization has had a real moderating effect on interest rates, nation or worldwide. So when the fed does something like this , um, it , it really is surprising cuz you don't expect them in these days of globalization to move rates as quickly as they have.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. And I believe, I know you and I had talked about this before , um, about the fed, how many times they were gonna raise their rates this year. And as of, you know, we're recording this on April 14th, it looks like they're gonna raise it at least five to six more times in 2022 .

Richard Thornton:

Yeah . We will see if that, if that comes, it depends on , uh , uh, supply chain issues, but the outlook is not very good right now. I mean , don't know if you've been reading about China's , uh , uh , recurrence and re lockdowns. Um , but uh , we're , we're going have major supply chain problems here for the next year , I think .

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. So the, the interest rate raising obviously thanks for bringing up the , the international aspects of it , cuz those are very important, cuz they're gonna affect us. You know, here again , soon the real estate market, I can see this real estate market cooling down as far as being a hot seller's market and cooling it back down to maybe getting closer to about what a buyer and seller's market should be on, on average, on even playing field. So the affordability aspect of a homeowner, so black night financial data, I know you , you look at this data too . They, they tell us what a median price home is across the country. And one of that number let's just call it $275,000 and they take the median price, the median income that someone has and then they figure out what can they afford to pay monthly? And so that number right now is $1,700 a month for a 30 or fixed mortgage with a 20% down payment. And that's what they're saying right now. So as the interest rates are creeping up, that's making that number jump higher. So it would seem to me that this rate increase in more rate increases depending on how high it goes is, is gonna put people out of being bankable for their home on new home.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah, I would, I would think so. I mean, that's, that's , uh , the natural progression as rates go up, fewer people can um,

Justin Bogard:

Uh ,

Richard Thornton:

Yeah , afford the payments. Um , the , the offset on that is, I mean, let's face it , the lower interest rates have been part of the reason that , uh, uh , the housing market's been going crazy , but to the other big drivers and a big part of it is, is tech. I mean, you got a lot of people making a lot more money. You've still got double income. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um , and you've got crypto . You , you are getting , seeing many, many more crypto millionaires out there , um, that are just sort of overnight you millionaires. And um, that's also at least a small part of it.

Justin Bogard:

I, I don't know the answer to this. I'm just throwing this out there. I don't really wanna go on a rabbit trail on it, but I'm just curious if you happen to have a take or a , or a comment about how the higher interest rates will affect the crypto market.

Richard Thornton:

I will not answer that because I have no idea. <laugh>

Justin Bogard:

Okay. I didn't , I didn't know if you followed that or not. I don't follow up per se. So I'm definitely not someone that is an expert on it, but , uh , I would be interested to see if what happens, but we're here to talk about real estate, right? Richard. So note investing is you and myself. That's our specialty mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so these rising interest rates will make things I see it making. Um , so are financing even more of an option for people to want to sell their house to a borrower on to make a pretty good passive income?

Richard Thornton:

Um, yes. Um, I think so. And also , uh, one of the things that's going to do is really affect the , uh , uh , non-performing , um, market. Yep . Uh, as you know, right now coming out of oh eight and uh , oh, nine market rates were high values were down, so it was not easy for people to refinance , um , and or sell their property to get out of their loan. That they're gonna be foreclosed upon. What we have in the market right now is still relatively low rates. We've got sky high values. So we are seeing people that people are able to refi me . I've got two of my clients are refining outta their, their notes right now. Um, they couldn't meet credit standards before now they can, you know, et cetera , et cetera . But as rates go higher, it's going to make it more difficult for those people to refinance. And therefore it will increase the number of defaults that we're going to have .

Justin Bogard:

Okay . I can see that happening. So we both think that home values are gonna kind of cool off a little bit, and we both see some challenges with the affordability of some borrowers. And so this is kind of, I wouldn't say the perfect storm, but I say this is a great opportunity to really get into the note business.

Richard Thornton:

I , I would agree. I would agree if you don't, if you don't mind being on the non-performing side. Yeah. Um, it's the non-performing side, as you know, is not totally passive. Um, unless you

Justin Bogard:

I'm putting it lightly, right?

Richard Thornton:

Yeah . Unless you, unless, unless people want to do something like work with, well like us, where we would go in, we'd give them preferred return and, and we'd take a management fee and then have, you know, splits on the upside or, or something like that. It's a little bit more aggressive it's that can be very passive for them. It's higher return, but it's a little bit higher risk too. I mean, let's face it. You and I both know that , um , you don't make money on every non , uh , performing loan that you invest in.

Justin Bogard:

That's true. You don't.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. I mean, I think you and I have both sustained losses minimal, but nevertheless, you don't like to , uh, even lose a thousand dollars.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. And I , I definitely, you know, my experience in not coming out very well on the other end on non-performer is definitely lack of experience and definitely lack of due diligence that should have been done. So I, I learned the hard way and I, I'm glad I learned on something that wasn't super painful, but it was painful altogether.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. And so I , I mean, For those that want to focus on that end of the market , um, if you, you , you you're really better, best to invest in a place where you can get really good comps.

Justin Bogard:

Yep . So

Richard Thornton:

Let's, let's take a little Midwest city where you've got a , a extremely, very , um, market , uh , in terms of the housing, all the different types of houses, it's difficult to get a value on something. Yeah . But if you're here in California or maybe you're in some suburban Indianapolis , uh, where you've got 20 homes or the same builder , um, you can say, well, gee, those are all worth X. And so you can get within 10%. Um, so it's a , it's, it's easier now, why is that important? Because you always have to know what your exit is. Yeah . And one of the huge values , um , of , uh, oh , one of the huge , uh , criteria of investing in a non-performing note is to know what your exit value's gonna be, cuz that way you back into how much you can renovate or need to renovate or, or if at all. And that's sort of, that's your driver.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. So you , um, how the feds get their rate is just pulling a number out of thin air. Well , how the , how the feds come up with what, what that rate should be.

Richard Thornton:

So, I mean it's all relative, right? Yeah . It's been , it's been near zero. Um , um , uh , the , the changing of the fed rate has its limitations and it's had its limit. It's been even more limited. Um, but basically , um, it is the , the , the money supply and controls the money supply. And so it's relative to what it has been. They go from zero to two, that is a huge jump. But if they went to maybe five to seven, people may not, and they would never jump at that. That much. I'm not, I shouldn't say that that's a , an increment, but it it's all relative. So it's, it's difficult to answer your, your question very simply.

Justin Bogard:

You gotta answer it , Richard. It has to be a yes or no. I'm

Richard Thornton:

Just kidding. Yeah. Yeah . Yeah . As in many things with notes in real estate investing the answer is it depends.

Justin Bogard:

It depends. It depends. Um, so something that you taught me that, that I wanna repeat is BS basis points. The , the BS is the short in term for, for basis points. And , uh, what, what took me a while to figure out Richard was a hundred basis points equals, you know, 1% increase or decrease, however you're looking at plus or minus basis points. So I know that the fed has been raising the rates. And so right now the, we talked about the national average of the 30 year mortgage is 5.06% , according to bankrate.com mm-hmm <affirmative> , which is about 18 basis points up from a week ago. Does that feel like a big increase 18 basis points in your experience? Was that feel like a normal market shift?

Richard Thornton:

I think it's, I think it's , um, I think it's in keeping with what they have been doing over the last couple for years . I mean , they've been making , um , a lot of their changes at quarter point increments and being very cautious about it cuz they don't want to tank the economy. Right. Right. They , they , they , they could make it a full point and everything's gonna take a nose dive and that's the last thing they want. So they're, they're being very cautious. It's a little bit like , um, uh , turning up the heat on the beef stew that you're making on the stove. You want it to be just right. Get a little bit too much. You're gonna sink the bottom. Um, so I , yeah, I think it's very much in keeping with what they have been doing.

Justin Bogard:

So do you, you've been in this business for a while . Do you recall a very large jump from one day to the next in basis points? Just outta curiosity.

Richard Thornton:

Uh,

Justin Bogard:

The number come out in your mind that is a large number increased from a , from day to day .

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. There was some times in the , in the eighties and nineties where there were huge jumps, there was, you know, they were, they were hitting the , uh, um, the rates , um , uh, 50 basis points at a time.

Justin Bogard:

Hmm .

Richard Thornton:

And that was, that was daily .

Justin Bogard:

Right .

Richard Thornton:

Pretty , yeah. Pretty 50 basis point at a time. And they do it like over a two month period, three month period. And you're going, holy smoke. We just, you know, we just moved , uh , two whole percentage points.

Justin Bogard:

<laugh> yeah. It's a lot mm-hmm <affirmative> so it's, it's kinda like that gambling that , uh, is it the Ru that wheel that I'm thinking of where, you know, you're just throwing a dart on when it's gonna land on black or if the rate's gonna go up or not. So hopefully a lot of people, if they were wanting to refi or get out of a higher rate mortgage, they could have done that the last couple of years. And hopefully they're just, they're just sitting still for a while until they, they sell their house and then they gotta go get a loan and, you know, get a higher interest rate. But that's just part of, of the , uh, the life cycle of having , uh , property with mortgages.

Richard Thornton:

Right. And you know, the fed, you asked me earlier, what do they base it on? I mean, they, they get all sorts of advanced , um, bureau of labor statistics, data and things like that , um, far in advance of the rest of the market. So they have a lot different , uh , indicators that they're basing these, these , uh , rent increase or rate increases on.

Justin Bogard:

So with higher interest rates from the Fred , does that equal higher inflation?

Richard Thornton:

Well, that should equal lower inflation. Okay . Because I mean, it means that they're scared about it, but they're gonna , they wanna make the economy cool off. So yes , that should mitigate inflation.

Justin Bogard:

Okay. So higher interest rates means lower inflation, lower interest rates means higher inflation. So we've been in a market of low interest rates for how long would you say Richard?

Richard Thornton:

What last 10 years? So

Justin Bogard:

10 , yeah. Okay. I was gonna start out a number like that, but I wasn't too confident. So I wanted to hear from you first.

Richard Thornton:

Right, right. Um, yeah. I mean, they've been keeping rates and they've been able to do that and that's one of the things that's been driving the economy and it's it's because there has not been any upward pressure , um, for them to do that. So why not, why it just facilitates commerce?

Justin Bogard:

Have you ever seen a market like this that's ran that long with those rates with rates that in , in the we'll call the low, low area?

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. I, I have not. I mean, all through the , um, sixties, seventies , um, rates were very stable. Mm-hmm <affirmative> , but you know , back in like 1975 , um, you could get a four and a half or 5% interest rate on your mortgage. And that was pretty standard, you know ? I mean, you gotta get at 1970, you get at 1974, you get in 1977. Oh, well this is where rates were know . So there was a very narrow, narrow band there, but , um, yeah .

Justin Bogard:

Okay . So what's my next question here. I , I had a good one for you, but I , I , I like to throw curve balls to you every now and then, but I feel like I haven't thrown a good curve ball to you yet, so. Okay . Um , <laugh> , uh , I know we're, we're talking a lot about interest rates today and we , we typically don't you and I typically don't talk a lot about interest rates, but just, you know , like I said, the beginning, it just was so fascinating that I just wasn't paying attention. All of a sudden it says 5% and I'm like, okay, wow. That's I , I , I looked up and it was 5%. It's just , um, right .

Richard Thornton:

One thing I think that we should all make note of is nobody. And I'm not an expert on this every, nor is anybody else <laugh>, they may tell you, you know, there's a whole of highly paid economists out there. That'll tell you they are, but they're , you know, their , if you look at their batting average , but , um, nobody expects us to be long-term inflation. Okay . Once , once the supply chain , uh , um, gets back into gear , um, prices are going to start dropping. Um, I mean , look at a lot of the , uh, um, indicators. Uh, I , I read an article this morning about , um, I mean, if you really look at the amount of cargo that's shipped via trucks in America is huge percentage wise . It's like 70% of the cargo and you go, holy smokes. Well, the gas prices are in Al what's going on in the Ukraine and all that are, are , uh , hugely affecting that. But over the next four or five, six years , um, doer bins and Volvo and all these groups are all experimenting and already actually putting on the road , um, hydrogen, semi trucks and electrical semi trucks . So that means the gas component is cuz we start to decrease. So shipping costs should decrease over time . So there's a lot of different factors like that. That're going to affect that and that'll bring inflation and cost back down.

Justin Bogard:

That makes sense. I'm on the same page with you on that. I didn't , I didn't realize they were making hydrogen semis.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. There's a big , uh , controversy. I was reading about this morning about apparently Dahmer , Bens and Volvo , um, are both vetting vetting on , um, hydrogen. Um, and the other , um, large manufacturers are betting on electric and they, they both got their pros and cons. Yeah.

Justin Bogard:

Um ,

Richard Thornton:

But we don't, I don't think anybody knows which way it's gonna go yet, but the net effect will be to lower the costs .

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. The, the hydrogen way is the most abundant resource that we have. Right. And right. Also the most explosive <laugh>

Richard Thornton:

Explosive. Right. And the , you know, there are, I mean to bet big on , uh , hydrogen, I don't think that's paid off yet for them, but uh, just like any , a lot of people said, well, electric will never make it because how you gonna charge your car? Yeah . Well guess what Tesla and other groups are, you know , uh , starting , um, installing in , uh , electric charge stations and they're going into , into restaurants and things like that. So the market , uh, starts to change and you're gonna see more of that for hydrogen and or electric either way.

Justin Bogard:

Interesting. So Richard getting back to our interest rate topic. So what I , I know you're not the fit . You're not gonna predict what rates do, but is , is it gonna seem normal if the rates are anywhere between five to 7% for the next five to 10 years?

Richard Thornton:

Well, one thing I haven't shared with you is, is the fed does ask me before they, they ,

Justin Bogard:

<laugh> the chairman ask you. Yeah .

Richard Thornton:

I have this little phone over here in the second make and I'm talking to , I saying , Hey dude .

Justin Bogard:

No . All right . Yeah.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. Google , Google also refers to me too. Anytime you ask anything of Google. Yeah. Google, how do you , you know, how do you , um, uh , change light bulb? Well, you know, it comes straight to my desk. I answer question Google ,

Justin Bogard:

Then you're typing it out and I can see you with the three dots on there, then you're misspelling back . Do it . That's right . That's right. I don't do Google anymore. I do Firefox or duck , duck. That's

Richard Thornton:

Right . You're trying to predict your privacy. That's that's

Justin Bogard:

A good thing. Duck , duck code <laugh> that's right .

Richard Thornton:

So I'm sorry, what was your question before I

Justin Bogard:

Do ? So I was gonna say, do you think normalcy for the next to 10 years , uh , for interest rates or it is gonna be five to 7% ?

Richard Thornton:

No, I think it's gonna drop back down. I just don't see global , global pressures as being that high.

Justin Bogard:

I don't either. I was just throwing out a number. I thought four to 5% seems normal.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. I mean, you can argue it good , a zillion different ways. That's the thing about talking about rates and economies and there's all sorts of different offsets and nobody really knows, but I just think that there's a general , uh , mitigating , um , effect , uh, to the world economy, unless things go totally haywire with Russia and Ukraine and they keep trying to expand into the BS and then NATO gets involved and we end up in some sort of huge world war again. I don't see it.

Justin Bogard:

Okay. Right . Richard, we're gonna transition to a different segment here. So I just wanna let the audience know , let this episode is brought to you by bright path notes. Richard, we're gonna change it up a little bit. We're not really gonna talk about real estate too much. We're kinda gonna kind of get into some , uh, um, added benefits that I think that we could provide to listener on the show today. And so one of the things that I know that you research very well and you , you read a lot of stuff. So what is a common source that you go to, and maybe it's a podcast or maybe it's, you know, something that you you see on, on YouTube or whatever, just to get kind of some information on either the mortgage industry itself or just kind of background on , on real estate and kind of what what's going on.

Richard Thornton:

Well, I think a lot of this stuff that you also look at the black night data mm-hmm <affirmative> , um , is, is very good about , uh , what's going on. If you're on the more mortgage side , um, there are , uh , just do a general Google and you'll come up with , uh , I'm trying to remember what the other one is. That's Um,

Justin Bogard:

Besides black Knight financial data.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah.

Justin Bogard:

Okay. Do you have any podcasts that you listen to to help? Um,

Richard Thornton:

Oh, inside Morgan , um , has , uh , a lot of good , uh , information , um, in general , uh , podcast. Um, no, I don't listen to , um, a , a lot of real estate podcasts. Um,

Justin Bogard:

Just be the bank , right ?

Richard Thornton:

Yeah . Just be the bank . That's right . Um , so not a whole lot of , a whole lot of , um , help there, but there's a lot of good. There's a lot of good stuff out there. Just Google it guys.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. What about any books? Is there any books that you really like to read when you were getting into real estate or throughout your career that you saw ? Man, that's a great book to have either a mindset on running a business or just a book about real estate.

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. Um, the book built to last. It's very good. Um ,

Justin Bogard:

Who's that by ?

Richard Thornton:

Yeah, that was a good one. Uh, I, I would read , um, uh , a lot of the business made , uh , simple stuff.

Justin Bogard:

Okay.

Richard Thornton:

Um, I think that's, that's very good and that tends to be a , uh , a little bit more marketing oriented , but yeah , he's talking very much about , uh, the simplicity and what to focus on and what to, how to message to build a business. And I think that's very good.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah.

Richard Thornton:

That's that's uh , Donald Miller is the author for that

Justin Bogard:

Stuff. Have you read any of the eith books?

Richard Thornton:

Any of which? I'm sorry.

Justin Bogard:

E eith the E no ,

Richard Thornton:

I know . Tell me about those. Yeah .

Justin Bogard:

I'll , I'll have to explain those to you offline. Those are, those are interesting books. I know someone else that I had on the, I think it was Czrena Harris . I had her on the last episode, she mentioned about the , uh , eith the eith books that these Michael Michael Gerber , I wanna say his name is , uh , maybe I'm butchering that up. I it's been a minute since I read it, but you think, I wouldn't know, cuz Sereno was just on too long ago, but

Richard Thornton:

Uh , yeah, if you're like me, a lot of these titles just sort of fly outta your mind .

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. I hear , I hear 'em all and they , they , I gave, 'em all confused. The author confused with a different book. Right. So , um, all right , Richard. So what is Richard's um, what is Richard's thought on, lemme see, I thought you , I would throw a curve ball mm-hmm <affirmative> and I haven't thought of a good curve boy yet during this, during this podcast here. And I know we , this isn't scripted by the way for the listener. This is all a kind of, you know, I have , I have an idea in mind of what I wanna say and what I wanna talk about, but I like it to be more authentic, so it's not, it's not super scripted. So , um, are you gonna leave California?

Richard Thornton:

No, you know, I know a lot of people are because costs are so expensive out here, but , um, No, I , you know, it's sort of like living in Manhattan, you know , uh , Hey , Manhattan is so expensive. Yeah. Um, but sort of once you're in that game , uh , if you get out of it, you're out of it. You're not gonna get back in, but it's okay if you, you stay there. Um, so no I'm gonna , I'm gonna stay , um, in terms of , uh , other books let's go back to, so I mentioned Donald Miller , um, Never split the difference by, by Chris VO .

Justin Bogard:

Yep . Okay. <laugh>

Richard Thornton:

Uh , that's , that's a very , very good , um,

Justin Bogard:

That something , I think anybody should read if they're, if they're in sales or if they're in business , uh , growing a business, that's , that's definitely a book that you just need to read. There's so many great applications in there that you just don't think about psych psychologically. Right . I think definitely gives you an edge.

Richard Thornton:

So , um, Simon Sinek has got his , uh , start with why

Justin Bogard:

Mm-hmm

Richard Thornton:

<affirmative> that's a very good book. And then , uh , a fellow named , um, Robert Cini , I'm probably butchering his name, but he's got a very good book called influence.

Justin Bogard:

Say that five times fast

Richard Thornton:

<laugh> um, yeah, exactly, exactly . Uh , but those are all very good. Um, Michael , uh , Malitz has book called profit first.

Justin Bogard:

Yeah. Okay.

Richard Thornton:

Um, I've read all of those and those are all , um, good reads.

Justin Bogard:

Are you a hardback book guy? Are you an electronic reader?

Richard Thornton:

I'm an electronic dude. I , you know, I have , I have a hard time just sitting in one place

Justin Bogard:

<laugh> so

Richard Thornton:

I've gotta carry it around with me and listen to it and, or, and, or read it on an ebook or something like that. But

Justin Bogard:

I I'm an e-reader as well. I, I have read paperback books , but I definitely prefer the e-reader. It's just, it's just so much easier just to have it. And then it saves my page for me. I'm like, I'm I always lose the page I was on or I'll fall asleep while I'm reading and then I'll have to figure out where I was. So, yeah,

Richard Thornton:

It's kinda bizarre . You know , when the , when the digital first started coming out, especially for like the newspaper, I used to get the news New York times religiously, and I thought, why would anybody want to go to , you know, digital because you got it and then right . They , they offered you a digital teaser. And I started to read it, read it on my iPad a little bit more and , uh , slowly. And this is obviously what they wanted to happen. I slowly actually started to prefer digital. And now I , I can't even, I saw somebody with a newspaper in public transport , uh , the other day . And I thought that's nuts. You

Justin Bogard:

Know , <laugh> in New York reason why ?

Richard Thornton:

Yeah. New York, they used to practice the , uh, the New York fold. Do you know what that is?

Justin Bogard:

No.

Richard Thornton:

So if you ride the subway , um, or a taxi , um, there's a certain way you, you open your page. Um, and then you fold each page in half, and then you fold top to bottom down. So the newspaper's only about a quarter page in size. And so if you do that, it's the, it's the least obtrusive way for you to read that. Then you have to unfold it and, you know, refold it and keep doing it . But it's , we no longer have to PR um , practice New York fold

Justin Bogard:

The information that comes outta your mouth, Richard. It , it doesn't doesn't surprise me anymore.

Richard Thornton:

<laugh> my significant others is it's a whole lot of meaningless trivia.

Justin Bogard:

<laugh> Hey , I'm glad you retain it, cuz it was entertaining for today. So thank you. Yeah . And thanks for being on today's episode, episode, number eight, brought to you by bright path notes. So I'm Justin Bogard my guest here is Richard Thornton. And for all you listening out there, I will catch you on episode number nine. So take care everyone. Thanks for listening to be the bank . We hope you learn something from today's show. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us. Plus check out our bright path notes, channel on YouTube and follow us on Facebook and Twitter at be the bank and on Instagram at be the bank podcast. Be the bank is sponsored by bright path notes. Thanks again for listening.